This question came up on another thread, but had little to do with the original topic. However, it's an important enough question to talk about so here-goes...

I would argue that the Bible does not clearly express the notion that Jesus is God. The Old Testament describes the One God as a being without form, who's name is Yahwah. Jesus does not match this description, therefore, according to the Bible, Jesus is not God.

Overly simplistic? Yes, but it forms the basis of my argument.

please make your thesis more clear:

a) you do believe in jesus being god, and thus disagree with the bible (bible clearly claims that he's not god)
b) you do believe in jesus being not god,
c) you do believe in jesus, agree with the bible that he's not god, but read here in the forum that he IS, and want to clarify it.
d) you argue about the clarity of the bible, not expressing anything valuable in this point (which is wrong, jesus claims so numerous times that he's "just" the son)

According to some there are 3 Gods, some argue there's one in 3 forms/appearances or something.

Others argue God can be anything or even anyone.

I'm sure the Bible is uhm vague on the subject as always. For example there are cases where a translation of Gods would be possible.

Cheers

Yes, lately I woundered about the 3 god mentioning as well. They call it in German "Heilige Dreifaltigkeit". Probably you can traslate it into something like "Holy Trinity". They are talking about God as the father, Jesus as the son and some other holy ghost.

So they probably claim all these persons to be one person: God.

that would be foolish, and i don't think (hope) they do. trinity consists of

- god (the one and only, the almighty, creator of the world etc)
- his son (cruified to take away our sins)
- and the holy spirit (probably the most difficult and interesting concept, some kind of bond, acting, guidance, will, hope, love, belief, something that can be (m)anything(s) and manifest in (m)anything(s), it would be interesting to draw a line back to nature religions in terms of "spirits" and "spirit beliefs")

jesus says numerous times that he's not god, but his son. why would a christian argue against the bible? (ok, i do sometimes, but europeans protestants are special in terms like these, especially when they were born in a formerly socialist country, compared to the american "fundamentalists" and catholics). the spirit is something that comes down on earth after the ascension of the christ, as a "visible" sign of god's love, so it's "only" a sign/metaphor (as there is no "ghost" in hollywood-terms, more like a "feeling" and a "moral guide").

at least that's how i see it. feel free to correct me.

Romans 9:5: "Theirs [the people of Israel] are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen." - NIV

Jesus doesn't say that He's not God by saying that He's His Son. as His creation we are His sons and daughters, so as God created Jesus the person for Himself to be, Jesus is His Son. so if Jesus doesn't say He's not God, and the Bible (as i quoted) teaches that He is, then the Bible explicitly teaches that Jesus was (and is) God.

julz

well dont want to screw the thread or something,

first off, i want state that i am a Muslim(not that religious tho.)
second, Islam and Christianity is basically same thing in the core and very similar at most parts.

The main diffrence is the understanding the God, Jesus and God's attributes, and how religions explains them.

before the story and wath Quran says about Bible/Jesus/Holy Spirit/God, according to Quran:

We do believe that the God in both religions is the same God.
Jesus is His prophet.(Im saying "His", but according to Quran God has no gender.)
God did not born, or given birth. God is eternal.
God is free from human needs.(No eating,infinite knowledge,never getting bored etc.)
God sees/hears/knows everything.

Except from the gender and eternality parts(i saw some topics like "God is dead?") both religions was pretty muech saying same thing i guess.now for the Jesus and Holy Spirit:

The first miracle of Jesus is that he has no father, Maria gave him birth without any father.

Jesus is His prophet and messenger, God sends revelations(i guess this is not the exact word, but i mean messages from God by revelations) via Holy Spirit(?).

For the diffrence on understanding of Holy Sipirit:
Gods sends revelations via the -one of 4 Archangels- Gabriel. Gabriel can be in any shape, can be visible/invisible to humans or just only His voice can be heard. There are events like "A stranger comes in to room while Mohammed and some beilevers were sitting, and delivers a message from God. Other asks to Prophet, "who he was?" He replies, "He was Gabriel." means they saw him., and some other like Mohammed only hears him."(Btw, angels dont have a gender too.)
IDK if Holy Spirit and Archangle Gabriel are diffrent things in Bible, but this basically, who delivers revelations and who Gabriel is.

And While Jesus was still on earth, Bible was the God's word, but then a traitor(or an agent,dont know that part much)betrayed Jesus and his followers, but God didnt let Messiah Jesus die, God raised Jesus to himself. They thought they killed Jesus, but they didnt. (im not sure if this is from Quran or not -i guess not-, it's said that God showed them the traitor in the image of Jesus and they killed the traitor not Jesus). Some day Messiah Jesus will come back. But after(idk how long) Jesus leaves, people edited the Bible with their own will and understanding, which caused religion to start to getting out of order.

for other Archangels,
(Azrail) Archangel Azrael : the angel of death (never named as Azrail in Quran, only stated as Archangel of Death.)
(Mikail) Archangel Mikhael(or Michael): the angel that is responsible from the nature and natural events on the universe.
(Cebrail) Archangel Gabriel: The angel that delivers messages and orders of the God to His Prophets
(Israfil) Archangel Israfel (same with Raphael i guess.): The angel that will wiffle the trump of doom when the day comes.

God dont die,get hungry,get bored.
Knows/Controls/Created everything, including you.



well at least something related to thread

According to Quran Bible shouldnt be teaching that the Jesus is god.

if anyone gets harrassed/insulted from this post, i wouldnt mind and understand if this gets deleted.

@julz: my god, what a nonsense. you aren't denying that jesus is god's son, but to disprove me, you say all people are god's creation, and jesus was made as god's mirror-like reflection so he is technically his son and not his son at the same time O.o and what does it have to do with his statement, if he says he's "his son", why do you need him to say, "i'm not god"?

the statement the he is god's son is right at the very beginning, f.i. mark 1,1 and matthew 1,1.

if jesus was god, so you are technically saying that god himself was crucified in golgatha? wow, that's crude. so nitzsche was right after all: god is dead, and he died because his mercy for us (agnus dei, qui tollis peccata mundi).


@ quadraxas: thanks, very interesting, well-thought and informative post. it's nice to have some insights on islam beyond that television horror show we get every day.

@ dooley who wrote after me: i really like your post. instead of making just plain words, you prove your point with examples and excerpts. i like it.

As Salamu Alaikum Quadraxas - I'm a Muslim too.

For the rest of you guys, that means 'peace be upon you'.

Your post is most welcome here. However, the topic is if the Bible teaches whether or not Jesus is God, not the Quran. I have another thread about whether the Bible or the Quran is true:
http://www.coniserver.net/ubb7/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=241339#Post241339



Thanks for your contribution. This is a very valid point, however the meaning of this verse is not as clear as you may suppose. Look at this translation of the same passages from the RSV (Revised Standard Version)

"They are Israelites, and to them belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen." (Romans 9:4-5)

This is a very different statement, I am not 100% sure which is the correct translation, but even if the NIV is correct, there's more to consider. Read this passage fron the Gospel of John:

JN 10:30 (Jesus says)I and the Father are one."
JN 10:31 The Jews took up stones again to stone him.
JN 10:32 Jesus answered them, "I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of these do you stone me?"
JN 10:33 The Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we stone you but for blasphemy; because you, being a man, make yourself God."
JN 10:34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, you are gods'?
JN 10:35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came (and scripture cannot be broken),
JN 10:36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?
JN 10:37 If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me;
JN 10:38 but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father."

The verse of the Torah which Jesus was referring to is Psalms 82:6-7, where it is stated:

"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes."

The point is that the word used for 'god' in this context is 'Elohim' which is used to refer to the One God, but also to people in positions of power, i.e. Judges etc...

Jesus is referencing this verse, when he makes the claim that he is the son of God, and when he says thet he and the father are one. Why?

This statement is clearly a denial of any claim to divinity. In this context all of us are sons of God, and Jesus is no different.

There are many other verses where Jesus himself denies being God.

@broozar: you misunderstand. i was describing how Jesus saying He's God's Son doesn't mean He's saying He's not God.

i preceded that with a verse indicating that the Bible does say He's God, though Dooley has just pointed out that this translation is not consistent, which i'm about to look more into before responding again.

don't be so quick to retaliate, broozar. just because you don't understand, doesn't make it nonsense.

julz